The Science of Soothing: Polyvagal Theory for New Moms with Stacey Uhrig

Dr. Laura: Welcome to another episode of Well- Adjusted Mama. This is a podcast dedicated to educating and empowering women from preconception, pregnancy, birth and through early motherhood, wellness lifestyle. I’m, your host, Dr. Laura Brayton. I’m a maternity pediatric chiropractor and mother so well as functional medicine practitioner who has hand selected experts in natural holistic healthcare specialties to shine light on options and choices during this exciting phase of a woman’s life. Today I have a special guest who is a repeat guest, Stacey Uhrig And she’s here to speak about the science of soothing polyvagal theory for new moms. Stacey Uhrig is a certified trauma care practitioner and a rapid transformational therapy practitioner. She’s also the host of the Flip youp Mindset podcast. With a strong commitment to supporting others on their healing journeys, Stacey utilizes various modalities including parts work and polyvagal theory to help individuals heal unresolved emotional wounds, build confidence, reconnect with her sense of self, and develop resilience. As an adoptive mother and advocate for trauma, informed parenting and personal growth, Stacey creates safe and empowering environments for authentic self discovery, personal development and long term well being. Hi Stacey Welcome back on the show. I’m so excited to have you on today.

Stacey: Thank you so much for having me again.

Dr. Laura: So today’s topic is going to be the science of the polyvagal theory for new moms. So let’s just start off with talking about what the heck is the polyvagal theory.

Stacey: So polyvagal theory is developed by a gentleman named Stephen Porges. And it really has to to do with this idea of the sympathetic and the parasympathetic nervous system. And it also involves something known as a window of tolerance. Are you familiar with a window of tolerance?

Dr. Laura: No.

Stacey: Oh, this is going to be a lot of fun then. Because my guess is that when you’re working with your patients, a lot of them are probably outside of their window of tolerance when they come to you. So we can create a visual in a lot of different ways. But essentially the idea of this window of tolerance and what a lot of people now like to refer to as a window of capacity is imagine that you have kind of three layers and the middle layer is this window of tolerance. And when it’s optimal, we have an optimal window for coping. We have an optimal window for our capacity for what is going on in life. And so when we’re in that optimal window, we use language like I’m in flow or I feel aligned or I feel grounded and in the space of say, internal family systems or parts work, which I do, we might say that you are in your self energy and in that space when life comes at you, you have this wide capacity to come up with solutions and deal with it. We know when we don’t have a wide window because we say things, I don’t have the bandwidth for this, or I don’t have the tolerance for this and we feel it, we’ll say we have a short fuse or we just don’t have the capacity.

Dr. Laura: The sense of overwhelm.

Stacey: Right. Well, here’s the thing. So if your window is wide and I’ll send you an image, you can use this. If your window is wide and life goes like this, as it does as it’s going like this, if you have a wide window, you might pop into what’s known as hyper arousal, which is this ventral vagal state that he talks about, Stephen Porges. And in that hyper arousal you have things like, overwhelm, anxiety, panic, rage, ocd. You might even have eating disorders, instability, anything that feels frenetic in the nervous system at a heightened state. And below the window is what we call a dorsal vagal state. And in that window we have kind of the opposite, right. We have this freeze mode where at the beginning at the top of the window we have that fight or flight mode. The bottom we have a freeze mode. And that looks like apathy, numbing out, depression, disconnection, and just overall malaise and complete procrastination and no motivation for anything in life. Okay. We might even label that clinically as depression. And so what I like about polyvagal theory is it’s non pathologizing, meaning we’re just saying right now my nervous system is stuck in a particular state. So if we know life goes up and down like this.

Dr. Laura: A roller coaster.

Stacey: Like a roller coaster. Thank you. Because I was like, I don’t know if this is going to be on camera or not. When life moves up and down as a roller coaster, if our window is high, it might pop up a little bit into the hyper, and it might drop down a little bit into this hypo, but it’s a blip. But when your window’s really narrow, if you have the roller coaster now, you’re spending more periods of time in this heightened state of arousal or this lower state where we are really frozen and almost like numbing out and apathetic and we almost just feel like we’re moving through molasses.

Dr. Laura: Got it. So at the end of the day, to your point, there’s going to be blips where we’re going to be up and down, but it should be a blip. Like you mentioned, in a healthy nervous, system state, it’s very short term and then we move through it and we’re back into our calm and ease, right?

Stacey: And the things that keep a window wide are first of all, even being just aware that you have a window, right? And being mindful of what are we doing. There are some natural things that keep our window wide and then there are some things we can add into it personally. So natural things that would widen the window on the self care spectrum would be nutrition, taking care of your body, keeping your body in alignment, say doing work with you, having enough sleep, you know, all the things we know from a self care perspective that keep us regulated and our body healthy. Exercise, movement. For me, a lot of times it’s connection, it’s connecting with people on the phone, over a cup of coffee, just anything that fills your bucket and gives you that whole feeling. The things that narrow the window or self limiting beliefs that are kind of the filter through which you see life events that are overwhelming, trauma kind of events and just anything that’s naturally depleting your energy. So life’s natural stressors are going to narrow that window. When we’re aware of this window of tolerance and we’re aware of this concept of the Pali vagal theory, we can then be more mindful. So for a good example is I have this little puppy, this little cavapoo and sometimes she likes to play ball and sometimes I’m tired at the end of the day working with five clients, so I might just be collapsed on the couch for a hot minute and she might be throwing the ball underneath the table. And if my window tolerance were wide, I’d be like, okay, I’ll play and it would be funny. But when my window of tolerance is narrow, I’m annoyed. So I can feel myself get up and like kind of huffing and puffing to go get this ball. And as I’m grabbing the ball I hear in my ear, you have a very narrow window right now. This has nothing to do with the dog. This is just right now you’re tapped. What do you need to do to fill your bucket to widen your window so you don’t feel so reactive to the fact that the dog just put the ball underneath the table, right? So being mindful of just this concept can really help 100%.

Dr. Laura: So especially when we’re talking to new moms that perhaps are having challenges with Self care routine. Ah, especially that fourth trimester, they’re sleep deprived, it’s hard to get a healthy meal in. What can they do? I mean, we know self care is so important for motherhood, but what can they do, especially you, know, soon after birth or whatever, to help them regulate their nervous system, which will directly benefit the baby’s nervous system.

Stacey: I mean, listen, at the end of the day, it’s a very, very good question because we’re in this natural state in that fourth term, right, where we are on the baby schedule. Our sleep is being disruptive, our hormones are probably all over the place, which is why they should be coming to you and working on that regulation. So first and foremost, work with someone to get your body into as much of a regulated state as you can after having put your body through so much. Right. Number one. Number two, it’s the awareness. It’s having those daily check ins. You know, I’ve had to do this for other purposes, but it’s a great tool to do it here where you literally just go on your phone and you set an alarm for every hour and you get to check in with yourself. How’s my window of tolerance right now? What can I do right now for myself to widen it? Is it stopping and getting myself a glass of water? Is it taking the baby and putting the baby in the stroller and going around the block for a walk? Is it being able to get on the phone and talking to somebody? I think during this time, this fourth period, you know, this fourth trimester, there can be a lot of isolation for some people. There’s a lot of overwhelm. There can be a lot of negative self talk because we’re under secure, underconfident about our ability to be a parent. and I can say that as being a parent for 20 years, you know, my kids are 20 and 16. We’ve all gone through it. And so know that about yourself and try to build in some sort of support system so you can check in on yourself. And I think more importantly than not, give yourself grace. There’s no straight line here. This is a very, like I said before, it’s like the roller coaster. It’s a very fluid, flexible time. And you know, having self compassion for yourself is also a window widener. I believe it is.

Dr. Laura: And that is, a self care practice in itself. Right. Just identifying where that negative self talk is coming in. Where are you beating yourself up for not being perfect and not knowing how to be a mother if you’ve never done this before? Right. Like, it’s, it’s really hard. And so it’s very hard. You know, the more that we can give ourselves grace, I think that is so important. And then also ask for support, right? I think sometimes as women it’s hard for us to ask for support, for help. And this is a wonderful opportunity to do that. And do it often. Reach out to your community, your tribe. Okay. Who can help with a meal, who can watch the baby for an hour when I take a nap, who can clean my home, do my laundry, how much can be delegated so the things that you need to do to care for you and the baby are prioritized.

Stacey: I have to tell you, I’ve been working with a young woman for almost five years now. And you know, this is a gal that I met when she was very young. She was 19 at the time, she’s 26, 27 now. And, she’s married, she has a daughter and she’s pregnant. And we were talking the other day and she said to me, she goes, you know, it is just my priority with the second pregnancy to make sure that, my window is wide and to make sure that I’m checking in on myself. And when I feel overwhelmed, it’s okay for me to say I feel overwhelmed and it’s okay for me to ask for help. And this comes from a girl that didn’t have a lot of people she could easily and effortlessly rely on. Growing up and asking for help goes against every part of her nervous system. She’s hyper independent. And I think a lot of people can relate to that. And so I love. Nothing made me happier than hearing this young gal say to me, if this is not helping me keep my window wide, it’s not going to work for me right now because I’m working, I’ve got a two year old, I’m pregnant, and I just have to prioritize myself. And I think that’s such a big one, Laura, because as women, we kind of were conditioned to not prioritize ourselves. And as a coping strategy, a lot of us deprioritized ourselves. So that is also a really important piece of the puzzle. That might be very foreign and uncomfortable for certain people, but our kids are our greatest teachers and being a parent can be one of our greatest teachers. And getting uncomfortable sometimes is the way to get to this new space of having that wider window and prioritizing yourself 100%.

Dr. Laura: And I think for someone who’s listening, who’s feeling depressed or anxious, overwhelmed, it’s going to be making Those choices that are uncomfortable or unfamiliar, because that’s going to get you in a different state. Right? Like what you’ve been doing is getting you into a state of the hyper and hypo. And those are not serving you. So you have to make different choices and decisions. And what I do find that when we get up the confidence to start asking for help, whether it’s from our partner, it’s from family members, friends, they’re so happy to help, help. They just sometimes don’t know how to. They can’t read our mind. So when we can verbalize that, they’re happy to come in and be like, you know, I’d love to help you do that. I’d love to do this, that, whatever you need. Because I think everyone understands that a woman who’s just given birth needs to rest. And you would think everyone knows, right? But she needs to rest. She needs to breastfeed and she needs to, you know, really care and heal. She needs to heal and recover from that pregnancy and birth. And it’s such a finite period of time as well. I mean, those three months go so fast that it’s just, important to really treasure it and protect it.

Stacey: Absolutely.

Dr. Laura: Yeah. So what else can moms do now? Let’s say the baby is getting older, schedules are changing, maybe they’re a toddler now. Like, how do we implement the polyvagal theory as our child is growing and going through different stages of life?

Stacey: What I think is really interesting, and I wish I knew about this concept when my kids were younger, because again, my kids are, you know, in high school and beyond, is actually recognizing when your child’s outside of their window of tolerance. Right. Because if I know one thing is we co regulate with our kids. So we’re talking about keeping our window in check. But we also have to be mindful that everybody has a window of tolerance. And so, you know, let’s just say you have a toddler and maybe that toddler is in preschool or wherever. Maybe the toddler may go for a little period of time during the day, or maybe you’re working and the toddler’s not with you during the day. And when you come home, you get to also remember, you know, what does it look like for my child to be in their window of tolerance and what does it look like outside of their window? Outside of their window could look like a tantrum. It could look like a little rage fit. Right. It could look like total collapse where they end up just like passing out and collapsing because they’ve just had such a tough day. And, you know, we get to fill their bucket and make sure that their window and also, as they get older, get them to understand their window. And I’ll give you a really, really great resource on this. This is something I used when my kids were little. You can also think of your window as a bucket. Okay. And there’s a very, very old book. I have it right behind me. it’s probably 30 years old. It’s called How Full is yous Bucket. And it’s this very narrow book that was really like a leadership book back in the 90s and the early 2000s about how full is your bucket at work, how full are your employees, buckets. What are the things that dip into their bucket, replenish their bucket? How do you get the most out of a person? Kind of. But they came up with the children’s version of this book. And it’s a picture book. It’s illustrated beautifully. It’s called How Full is your Bucket. Can find it wherever you find books, just the children’s version. And it gave this idea of everybody’s walking around with kind of like an invisible but, like, metal pail above their head. And when our buckets are full, they almost, like, slosh with water, and they almost overflow into other people’s buckets. And when these people’s buckets are empty, it’s almost like you could drop a coin into it and hear a clink. And so we get the child to start to recognize, oh, this is a bucket filler for me, or this is a bucket dipper for me. And, really what we’re saying is this thing keeps my window wide, and this thing keeps my window narrow. And in that particular book, it talks about connections with friends, something somebody said. Maybe there’s a bullying moment. Maybe they. Their sandwich was smushed inside their lunchbox. Maybe somebody kicked the back of their seat on the bus. Like, whatever it is, it helps get the children to start being mindful and recognize what are the things that keep me regulated and what are the things that dysregulate me? Because that’s really what we’re talking about. And I’ve had a handful of people that I’ve recommended the children’s version to, to read with their kids. And all of them say it is a fantastic resource. And now the child. It’s the langu the child’s using, oh, Mommy, this filled my bucket. Or this, you know, this dipped into my bucket. And now this just can become. This can become conversation around the table. We used to say in my household when my kids were little roses and thorns, like, what was your rose of the day? And what was your thorn of the day? But you could say, what’s your bucket filler of the day? And what was the bucket dipper for the day?

Dr. Laura: And the name of that book is how to fill your bucket.

Stacey: How full is your bucket?

Dr. Laura: Oh, how full is your bucket? And like you said, it can be used in children’s language so they can really understand when they are feeling those big emotions. Right. They know they’re feeling it, and it feels like, sometimes out of control. Right. Like, how do I not, you know, go down this spiral? And there’s, a way to empower them to really, What can they do to fill up their own bucket?

Stacey: Yeah.

Dr. Laura: Like, at what age does. Can a child start doing that on their own? And they don’t.

Stacey: I mean, I think, like, as soon as our kids are kind of verbal, right. Started reading that book to my kids when they were, like, three, four, five years old. Why not? You know, like, if you’re doing story time at night and you’re going through. It’s a very simple, like, illustrated, you know, storybook. Very appropriate for young elementary school and up. And I love it because, you know, kids are funny. Like, you could even see them saying to a teacher, that was a bucket dipper saying to another kid, you’re dipping into my butt. Like, it can become natural language for them. And so I think when we start incorporating this kind of concept into the wider family system and everyone’s able to talk about it, you know, what would it look like to be at the counter and a kid’s having a tantrum, and the mom can say to the child, how full is your bucket right now? You could even have a physical little tiny metal pail if you wanted to. Just get it at Michael’s or wherever. And maybe you have little chips or coins or something that you can be putting in rocks that you’ve collected from when you were at the beach. And you get to determine, like, just by visually, the kid might be like, I only have one.1 rocket in my bucket right now, Mom. Or maybe you come home and the bucket’s full. And so it’s just, like, a really neat way that you can try to incorporate it into the whole family unit.

Dr. Laura: Right.

Stacey: Mom can say it, too. Like, the mom could say, like, you know what, guys? I had a really tough day. And, like, she could pull out her own bucket. I like to use, like, mason jars, because you can see through them, you just like put jelly beans in it or whatever and you know, take them all out and be like, this is how many I have in my jar right now. Like as we’re going into bath time, I just need you to know instead of 100 jelly beans, I have like five jelly beans in my, in my jar right now. So if, you know, I’m just warning everyone, like if I’m not on my best behavior, it’s because my jar is pretty empty. So there’s so many different ways that we could incorporate this into our, into our children’s lives. And it just normalizes the conversation about how we feel.

Dr. Laura: It’s really normalizes it. I think it also is teaching empathy and these social cues as well that is so important for children to learn and even recognizing when they’re at school and maybe their friend is having a rough day and is a little bit, you know, sharp with them. It’s not about them. Right. But you know what, For a child, that could be really personal. I mean, even adults could take that personal. It’s like it has nothing to do with you. That’s right. That person is in a low window right now.

Stacey: That’s right. That’s right. So like, even when I do sessions with groups of people, whether it’s couples or more than two people, I might start a session with the window of tolerance picture open on my screen. And I might say, let’s just check in with ourselves right now and let’s just see where we each are within our own window of tolerance and why don’t we each share where we are, like how wide or how narrow is our window? So, and then if, if everyone’s as narrow, we might do like a little exercise at the beginning, maybe a little breathing, maybe a little visualization just to get people more grounded and rooted. So those parts of us that activate when we get up into that hyper or that hypo kind of can settle and we can widen our window of tolerance a little bit that way too.

Dr. Laura: 100%. And as you’re saying that, like certainly ongoing self care routines will benefit and help widen our window. But when you’re in that moment and you’re like, oh, I am low right now, what are like some quick things that somebody can do? Drink a sip of water, do some breathing. What else do you have that can be managed at that moment?

Stacey: Yeah, it really depends on what works for the person. Right. So like some people can do really great breath work exercises and maybe that’s.

Dr. Laura: What really works for two minutes of Breathing?

Stacey: Yeah, like box breathing. If you have like 10 minutes, right, and you know that your window is narrow, you can just. We know when it’s narrow, we feel it, we’re agitated or we’re feeling really low. One tool that I love and I recommend it often M is eft tapping. And even though I’m not trained in that, I do recommend it a lot to my clients. And there’s an app called the Tapping Solution. It was developed by the Ortners. I don’t know if you know who they are.

Dr. Laura: Yeah, I have the book.

Stacey: Yeah, I have the book behind me as well. But they have one of the best apps I’ve ever seen. And it’s, okay, it’s not cheap. It’s like $100 for the year. People can get like a 50% discount off of my website with it. And it’s not why I promote it. I just went to them and was like, guys, if you. I have a lot of people that are willing to buy it, can you just give them a break? So what’s amazing about the app is if you have the full version of the app, you can type in whatever it is that’s bothering you and there’s likely to be some form of customized tapping solution for it. So even if you typed in anxiety, it might have like 30. It might be like anxiety about health, anxiety about taking a test, anxiety about seeing someone, anxiety that I don’t even know what the source is. Like they have a catalog. You find the one that speaks best to you and then it takes you intentionally through the whole tapping solution that lasts about 10 minutes, where it’s speaking out loud, telling you exactly where to tap on the different acupressure points and exactly what to say to reconnect with yourself and widen that window. Essentially what I love about it is there’s also. That’s kind of like a reactive. Like I’m in a state and I want to get myself out of this state. But they also have a handful of solutions that are proactive in the sense that they’re like challenges. So like 21 day gratitude challenge, where every single day you get up and it takes you through a tapping for that. Where they might have a program just for sleep. Right. So if people have a hard time sleeping and that’s one of the window narrowers or a bucket dipper, you can kind of put yourself through this 21 day sleep program where you’re listening to it every night for 21 days and getting you back into this rhythm of allowing all of your parts to settle so you can sleep. So I. I just think it’s one of the most brilliant, comprehensive tools that I’ve seen that I can share with my clients. And they love it because it’s just on their phone, so if they need it, they can have it in an emergency.

Dr. Laura: Stacey that is so cool. I used to do EFT with a practitioner, and I would put the essential oils in, which are also really powerful if you have those at home. But I love that there’s an ability for people to do this on their own without a practitioner at any time of day or night. Using tech, right? Just, getting that app, putting in what you need and following the program, and, I could see why that would be so powerful.

Stacey: It’s so powerful. And it’s so funny because, back in the day, I used to make some custom taps, and it’s just not that necessary, given how extensive the app is. But I’ve had clients say to me, oh, my God, I went to that family dinner. And, you know, I really didn’t want to go to this family dinner, because these people really trigger me. And I did exactly what you told me to do, and I just excused myself to go to the bathroom. And I was in the bathroom for 10 minutes, and I just ran through one of the taps, and I was like, I’m so proud of you. And they said, it really worked. It just brought me back down to me, and it widened that window, and then I could go back out, and I almost could just hear it in my head. Like, it just gave me more. We’re really talking about resourcing ourselves in the moment, right? So if you’re getting ready to go to a meeting or, you know, you’re going into a big conversation and you’re in your car and you’re sitting in the parking lot, you can open it up and do this. So I love the immediacy of it. I tell my clients, it’s kind of like that glass that you can break. That’s like, break in case of emergency. Like, that’s how I see the tapping app. It’s just a fantastic tool.

Dr. Laura: Awesome. And you also had mentioned box breathing. Is there a specific app out there that somebody could look at to help with breathing?

Stacey: you know, there are so many apps. I think people can just look. I mean, you’ve got the Calm app. You’ve got a lot of different apps that can kind of help you regulate with your breathing. there’s way too many. And I think each one speaks differently to the next. But if they type in meditation app or breathing app and they find the one that speaks to them, certainly there’s an abundance out there of that.

Dr. Laura: Yeah. it’s. And it’s a lot of them are somewhat new too. Right. Like, this is something that’s within the past five, maybe 10 years.

Stacey: Yeah, I would say so.

Dr. Laura: This is blown up. So it’s empowering. Because if someone’s never learned breathing or eft or meditation, and it’s like, okay, well, I should do that, but how? And you know, I don’t have time to go see someone to learn this, then you can learn it with your phone and these apps and it will teach you, and it will literally hold your hand through the process and tell you what to do and get you to the other side.

Stacey: That app, I mean, you can choose what kind of gender you want shown on your screen and they show the tapping. You can pick the voice that you want and it is deliberate. And they ask you at the beginning if you want to rate. Let’s just use anxiety as an example. Whatever the challenge is rated on a scale of 0 to 10. As far as where’s the intensity now? And then at the end of the Solution or that 10 minute tapping experience, it asks you to rate it again. And the idea is, even if you just see it move down a notch, you know that you have some agency over your body. And listen, even as a trauma care practitioner, we all get triggered, right? We all find these moments where we end up dysregulated and our windows narrow. And I’ll go find myself sitting either here in my office or upstairs in my closet, and I might run through like two taps back to back, just to bring everything back to center and remind myself, I’m safe, I’m okay. Like, whatever this is that’s dysregulating me, I can bring it back here. Even if we’re in a. In an extreme situation where there’s a true emergency, we still have the ability to create the agency within us, to resources ourselves within us, to try to stay as grounded as we want to, or we would like to be. Even using something like that, after you’ve done it long enough, you’re going to hear it in your own head, you know, okay, I’m safe. Even though I’m feeling dysregulated right now, I get to choose to remind myself that right here in this moment, I’m safe, I’m okay. I can’t control outcomes. Whatever it is, you’ll start to even hear yourself do it even without the app.

Dr. Laura: Yeah, it’s because it’s something that you’re practicing and the more we practice and put our attention and focus on, the better we get. Right. And the more skilled we are with how to do it, when to do it, we can catch ourselves quicker. I mean, what do you find for parents that are putting this into practice within how their babies, toddlers, children and beyond are able to then regulate their nervous system? I’m sure you see that direct correlation.

Stacey: We all know that our children are co regulating to us through the energy as a model of how to deal with stress or how to deal with life stressors. And so obviously if we as parents are better regulated and more regulated, it’s going to show our children how to cope. Right. So our coping strategies and how quickly we pop out of our window and which location we go in, whether we’re going down or up, it influences our kids and how they cope. And so no, doubt us doing this work as parents, as mothers, as fathers, and being that guide to our child and also being able to have the language to work with our kids, it’s the, it’s a no brainer.

Dr. Laura: Yeah, the whole family benefits.

Stacey: Yeah, no doubt.

Dr. Laura: I love it. Well, Stacey we have to wrap up this podcast, but you have any last thoughts you want to share?

Stacey: I would just say that even if it sounds like a big concept, it’s not a huge concept. Anybody can go on to any search platform and Google or however you like to search, you know, the window of tolerance. There’s so much information out there on it. And if you are a new mom and you like this concept, grab that book. How Full Is yous Bucket? Right. you can get it wherever you like to buy your children’s books. And it is hands down one of the best books I ever had in my own household to check it out.

Dr. Laura: And how do people find you?

Stacey: So people can find me and my work at my website, which is flipyourmindset.com or they can follow me on Instagram and my Instagram handle is my name. Stacey you’re a guest. T A C E Y U H R I G awesome.

Dr. Laura: well, Stacey, once again, it was a pleasure to have you on the show.

Stacey: Thank you so much.

Dr. Laura: Well, I hope you enjoyed today’s episode. I always enjoy having Stacey Eric on the show. She has such a fresh, enlightened perspective, perspective around parenting and about nervous system regulation that I especially appreciate as a chiropractor and mother. And it’s just really wonderful information that she’s getting out there with her work. If you want to learn more about what she’s doing, you can check out her website at, flip your mindset dot com. Don’t forget to check out her podcast, also called Flip youp Mindset. And you can find her on Instagram and LinkedIn @stacyurig. That’s s t a C E Y U H R I g or on YouTube @ flip youp Mindset to get more information about what she does and how she can help. And, stay tuned. We’re planning on recording a third episode around adoption because she’s an adoptive mother and she has so much value and information to add in that area. So that episode’s ideally going to be coming out in the next few months. Stay tuned.